Just came back from a date with an Italian girl who works in fashion. Very r in terms of her dress sense, tattoos and jewelry, but as I found out on the date: 27 years old. That means that her body agenda is working against, what I think, is her r inclination. Probably if I met her seven years ago it would have been a first date lay, but this was a standard coffee then drink.
The first venue was some simple get-to-know-you conversation, with all the standard “alpha” body language and Jon Matrix style demeanour.
Second venue was the same pub I took #45 to, where I ran through my escalation, went a bit deeper with the rapport, and kissed her. She let it happen but it didn’t go very far; certainly not into makeout territory. I decided that tonight wasn’t going to be the night. I kissed her outside the pub as well, and it got a bit further, which is useful information for the second date (if there is one). Then I dropped her off at the tube station and seeded the next date; I didn’t set a day in stone, but indicated that I wanted to see her again. The date was two hours long on the dot.
*****
What’s occurred to me recently is how important that first venue is. Last year, I was skipping it out and trying to do one venue, one drink pulls. It worked on some girls, ironically the younger and more desirable ones, but turned me into a one trick pony. Having that first venue has been vital in me expanding my repertoire and playing a better Game: a), it lets us get the comfort chit-chat out of the way so that she can tick that box off from her own set of milestones, b), I can calibrate off of what she tells me and how she’s acting, for example, is she letting her hand flick my arm and is she leaning forward to speak? And c), it lets her fall into my frame.
This is nothing new to Daygamers but I want to stress how vital it seems to be, especially part c. I think that a lot of guys exhibit two distinct styles: the immovable object and the irresistible force. These aren’t mutually exclusive, because every great player shows both; it’s more to do with how you go out and get the win.
The immovable object, the style I identify with more because it fits my personality, passes shit tests by going down the non-reactive route. They play a kind of social trust Game where good behaviour is rewarded with their own good behaviour. Bad behaviour is only tolerated for a certain period of time, and often isn’t fought with classic “Game” techniques. The IO Daygamer believes in a set of social etiquettes which, when broken, are considered extreme red flags. He wins the day by not conceding, but then scoring one or two goals which are delivered with precision. I think you can tell if you’re this kind of Daygamer if the girl you’re seducing seems to bubble under the surface; her eyes smoulder with desire.
The irresistible force style Daygamer passes shit tests with agree and amplify. They’re creative people and capture the girl’s mind with their ascorbic wit. This type of person has an excellent knowledge of the Game toolkit and can apply it as an art form. They make the girl feel as if she is on an incredible adventure and in doing so blow her away. They’re characterised by taking the fight to her. These are the kind of guys who have the best stories and are doing incredible things, pulling lays out of seemingly nowhere. I imagine this kind of Daygamer makes girls giggle insensibly because they are so full of excitable energy.
I want to stress, a great Daygamer is able to do both, but it’s an interesting way to start thinking about your own particular style, strengths, and weaknesses.
Yours unfaithfully,
Thomas Crown
Thomas Crown PUA 
Do you think you are inducing tests or do they just happen ‘naturally’?
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Both. You induce a test for her to check you’re a player because she wants to know you’re the real deal. Similarly she’ll naturally test for social acuity (desirable in r and K).
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And then… after all my chatter about PSYCH TYPES with girls, I will applaud you for your points about psych types of seducers.
In the world of “just neg her, bro!,” this is rarely talked about it.
IO vs IF…. excellent. And artfully said.
My personal distinction is “Casanova” vs “Strong Silent” type. My personality fits closer to the former… and the techniques I employ are in that category as well. I “overwhelm” girls… as best as I am able.
Lots of guys would tell me I should do XYZ because I am an old man… that I should wear a suit, etc., run “dignified” old man game. Fuck that. I will the hit the streets now… in black jeans, ADIDAS (“all day I dream about sex”) and a red t shirt. Why? Because my TYPE works for that look. And the TYPE of girl I want… responds well enough.
And with ^ that in mind… my “age” is pretty irrelevant, as we have better factors, “higher order factors” to consider.
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Good posts from all here. High quality discussion.
DofG I’ll disagree with you though. I think age is a factor as Oscar says. Women do have a timeline for what attracts them based on week to week (ovulatory shift) and with increasing years, experience with men and the “biological clock”. A very basic heuristic for what a woman “goes for” would be age as the 18yo has years before her eggs run out and can afford to go for the “fun party guy” with no long term prospects. The 37yo doesn’t have that luxury and knows it. She is more likely to require some provisioning to garner some attraction. (Granted the *arousal* is separate from this. But immaturity and “bad boy unpredictability” present in a younger man will probably annoy the older woman as opposed to attracting the younger one.)
I take your point that personality matters a huge amount and I agree with this. I think there are so many variables such as self esteem, family upbringing (including societal pressures), and my favourite at the moment is birth order (first borns tend to stick to rules and are more conservative than later borns who not only have been led by their elder siblings (and hence are more easily led as they know how to follow), but are also more rebellious than their older siblings).
Age is a probably an ill-fitting umbrella for personality factors but we are all biological animals at the end of the day. Our huge brains are just following the instructions of our genes and emotional drives, however complex we like to think of ourselves.
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I was also going to say, as an older man your age probably makes both 18yo and 33yo women see you in a similar light as each other. Mr Crown here is probably perceived differently being in between these ages so that will also affect how women respond to him, and his resultant game tactics. He won’t have the same gravitas which comes with age and the resulting life experience which you will have over both age brackets. Hence he’ll amend his game accordingly.
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I wish I had thought to say this first because it is very elegant. Not every girl for me puts the Y in YHT
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Great post, man. I like this.
I’ll argue with this part:
>> It worked on some girls, ironically the younger and more desirable ones, but
Men of game are always trying to tease meaning out of a given situation, and (when we’re lucky) control the elements to get what we want.
But I often see these kinds of conclusions… here about her AGE. More commonly, I see guys making claims about GEOGRAPHY (Polish girls are ABC, Japanese girls are XYZ).
In politics, our man Jordan Peterson has some excellent comments not about “Liberal” or “Conservative,” but about the PSYCHOLOGY behind them (liberal more likely to be “open” while conservative more likely to be “orderly”). That was a powerful explanation for me.
In this case… AGE seems to me to be a good indicator of fertility, but not “what she will respond to.” It’s a bad point of leverage, IMAO.
I am an older guy (45). My last +1 was 5 days ago, she was 21. The +1 before that was about two weeks ago, she was 33.
What “worked”, in my estimation, with either girl… was more about PSYCHOLOGY than her age. Of course this it true.
I caution guys about this “age” (or “geography”) related conclusion. They are “lower order” factors… so low, I think they’re mostly meaningless.
If you want to find meaningful “categories”… look for PSYCHOLOGICAL TYPES. My current favorite is “low self esteem” vs “high self esteem”… that level of difference is meaningful in terms of patterns of behavior. 21 vs 33… I don’t personally think so. The 21 yr old is likely hotter (true), but in terms of her behavior (and “what works”), I default back to psych type.
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In terms of psychological traits it would be high agreeableness either shown at a younger age on average, or because of the age gap causing people to “regress”.
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This is wrong. The age of of a girl/woman is CRITICAL. It’s basic biology about the way points and priorities in her life. Read Rollo or Torrero for the details but it MASSIVELY changes how to pull her depending on if she’s 18 or 28.
And you do know that “your” man Jordan Peterson is a TradCon with zero game ability or advice?
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JBP has basically zero experience with women. True. That guy is genius… but is blind to what seduction is all about FOR US. Agree 100%.
>> but it MASSIVELY changes how to pull her depending on if she’s 18 or 28.
Well, I’ll have to agree that it might be true for YOU. For me… and I run around with a couple girls these days… I think age is a “low fidelity” (=weak) way to see the behavior of women. If you like that view… good for you.
I hooked up with a 22 year old, a 24 year old, and a 34 year old last week. I ran different game, perhaps, but it was about their personalities… not their ages. it was MUCH MORE SUBTLE THAN AGE. If you have a “generic expectation,” based on a girl’s age, and then her PERSONALITY shows otherwise on the date… do you stick to the “muh hypergamy” notes from your boy Chicken Little?
If you had better evidence, of course you’d change strategies. I have ZERO EVIDENCE that once I know the girls age, I know what to expect. None. I am 5000 approaches and 20+ lays into daygame. I know 18 year old girls that are hard to lead, and 30+ girls that are feminine and charming and fresh. And I know the opposite. WITHIN THE WINDOW OF FERTILITY… it’s not age related, in my experience.
Her psychological profile is much more predictive. That seems very obvious to me. I don’t know any guys that are good with women that will defend age as a primary filter. If you want fuck younger girls… great. If you think younger girls are gamed a certain way… I think you need more experience with younger girls.
For me… psych type is much more important than age. “R vs K,” for instance… is much more “high fidelity” way to read women.
SELF ESTEEM as a lens… infinitely more powerful than “age.”
MASC vs FEMININE… much more interesting way to read a girl.
COMPLIANT vs INDEPENDENT… much better filter.
We have many choices… age and geography… are some of the weakest predictive tools I have seen.
There are many minds I study, and the two you mentioned are near the bottom of the list of me at this point in my game.
For this topic… I’ll point to Practical Female Psychology for the Practical Man. If you read that book, you will notice… there is no chapter on “when she’s 18… do this.”
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